3: The Michael Jordan of Child Resilience, Dr. Aude Henin (RRK Podcast)

We are THRILLED to welcome Dr. Henin to the podcast this month!  You are not going to want to miss this one as she provides so many great ideas on how to build resilience in the kids in your life. Check out all the great resilience tips for you and your kids on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

Dr. Henin is co-founder and Co-Director of the Child Cognitive Behavior Program and Clinical Director of the Child Resiliency Program in the Department of Psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital. She is Assistant Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Henin specializes in the assessment and cognitive behavioral treatment (CBT) of children with mood, autism spectrum, and anxiety disorders. Her work also focuses on the development and implementation of psychoeducational interventions to enhance coping and resiliency in youth across multiple settings.

Thank you for listening to the Raising Resilient Kids Podcast where we provide parents, teachers and coaches with ideas and strategies to help kids and teens build their resilience and achieve their potential in a healthy, fulfilling way. It takes a village to raise a healthy, resilient child and this podcast gives you, as members of your village, tools to do exactly this.

For more information on the podcast, or if your child, student, player or performer has a question they would like answered by one of our expert guests, please visit us at - ⁠https://www.smarthwp.com/raisingresilientkidspodcast⁠.

Episode Transcript

Tom Klisiewicz: So every podcast we start with a question from a kid and this question today comes from Lucy who lives in Glendale, California. Lucy writes. I experienced a lot of nervousness and anxiety. When I do, everyone tells me that I need to breathe. But when I do that, it just makes it worse.

Is there anything else I can do instead? So Jeannie, I am thrilled to have this guest on, , to answer this question and answer a few of our other questions and kind of contribute to the podcast.

Um, but I am a little bit worried about what this means for the future of our podcast. So this is kind of like if we had a, a podcast about basketball. And one of our first guests was Michael Jordan.

Jeannie Stathis: Whoa, okay, so we're starting out high. Okay, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. How are we gonna build from

Tom Klisiewicz: exactly. Where do, where do we go from here? Our guest today is Dr. Ode Hennon, who is the co founder and co director of the. Child Cognitive Behavioral [00:01:00] Program and the Clinical Director of the Child Resiliency Program in the Department of Psychiatry at Massachusetts General Hospital.

She's an Assistant Professor of Psychology at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Hendren specializes in the assessment and cognitive behavioral treatment of children with mood or autism spectrum, and anxiety disorders. Her work also focuses on the development and implementation of psychoeducational interventions to enhance coping and resiliency in youth across multiple settings.

And I will add, she's one of the nicest people you'll ever meet in the world. And I'll also add the Michael Jordan of child resiliency, Dr. Hennon.

Aude Henin: Oh my goodness, you are now I'm feeling like I'd better do a really

Tom Klisiewicz: No,

Aude Henin: on this.

Jeannie Stathis: No, no, no.

Tom Klisiewicz: no, no. Um, yeah. So Dr. Enda, if you could tell, tell us about kind of Lucy's question. Well, how would you answer that question, please?

Aude Henin: Well, first of all, let me say thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to talk about this and I'm so grateful for the opportunity. [00:02:00] And as you were saying, what Lucy is reporting is so common, and I understand the frustration and I, I think we often see kids who as soon as we mentioned deep breathing or mindfulness roll their eyes and say, Oh, I've tried it.

It doesn't work. Uh, and I, I think that emphasizes a few points. One is that we know that a one size fits all approach doesn't work for anyone. And so what we want to really do is give kids a range of tools that they can use and that they can use in different circumstances to figure out what works best for them.

Um, I want to say that there is a lot of room for approaches like breathing and mindfulness and relaxation. Those are really important tools. It's more of a question of how and when do you want to use them?

Tom Klisiewicz: Excellent. Thank you. I met you essentially through the resilient youth program that the Benson Henry Institute had put together and that's one of the things that I love about that program is the fact that it gives a whole bunch of, you know, different.

options for kids to use. Can you share with us a little bit about that program?

Aude Henin: Absolutely. So, [00:03:00] uh, the Benson Henry Institute has been around for decades. It was founded by Herb Benson, who, unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago, but, was a, a pioneer in the field and a leading cardiologist who, , really began to recognize that, the impact of stress was having an impact on, , the cardiovascular functioning of his patients, and so researched ways to combat those effects using, , a term that he called the relaxation response.

And he has published, , numerous, numerous, , books and articles really highlighting how powerful this can be to treat a number of different, , conditions. , and his wife, , Marilyn, , Wiltshire has, , was the one who developed resilient youth. So adapted it, , Developmentally for children and adolescents, and I had the pleasure of collaborating with them several years ago to update and, um, and modernize, if you will, the approach a little bit.

 With a related, but, um, updated approach that we call a resilient youth.

Tom Klisiewicz: Awesome, awesome. What are, what are some of the techniques in resilient youth or others [00:04:00] that you've used with kids that allow them to kind of calm their nervousness, calm their anxiety, like kind of Lucy mentioned there, that aren't, aren't the breathing pieces?

Aude Henin: So in addition to the breathing pieces, we do focus on other tools to bring on the relaxation response, which is just to kind of define that as a voluntary way of addressing all of the things that our bodies do when we're under stress. And so that includes mindfulness, that includes. imagery that includes physical activity, maintaining sleep hygiene, because often when we want to use those tools is not when you're in crisis.

And I think that's one of the problems that people try to take deep breaths when they're already at a 10 out of 10 of anxiety, and that's not going to work. And in fact, may be counter helpful because you're actually then feeling even more pressure to do something while you're already panicked and

Jeannie Stathis: so true.

Aude Henin: , and so we really want to use those tools earlier on, either as a way to prevent that level of anxiety or to address it when it's at a lower level. Um, we also focus a lot on cognitive [00:05:00] tools and that's by kind of CBT training, uh, which is to pay attention to thoughts that may be unhelpful or not serve us.

We all have them. We all have thinking traps and, and errors in thinking. Um, we tend to, you know, Um, we carry with us that have a tremendous impact on what we pay attention to, how we interpret ambiguous situations, what we remember. And so by identifying those thought patterns and challenging them, we're coming up with alternative ways of self coaching or thinking about the situation that can help decrease our stress tremendously.

, and we've also drawn now from other approaches, , like dialectical behavior therapy, um, which looks a lot at, um, emotion regulations. So how can we validate our experiences and be more compassionate? And at the same time, how can we change our behaviors so that they're more in line with what's important to us, our goals and our values?

Tom Klisiewicz: think actually we had one of our listeners for our podcast kind of mentioned that, that, that kind of [00:06:00] negative thought, you know, the negative thought pattern that you have in your head, the perfectionism, the self criticism, do you have any techniques you teach kids that can help with that?

Aude Henin: Absolutely. It's so common, right? We all have that coach, that harsh voice. We often talk to ourselves in a way that we would never talk to anyone else.

Um, and those negative thoughts have as much of an impact as if someone else was saying them to us. So the very first technique is recognizing them.

Thoughts are quick, they're fleeting, we're not usually aware of them. Um, so by recognizing what the thoughts are and linking those to... specific feelings and behaviors that in and of itself can create just a little bit of space. Um, and can help those thoughts have less impact. Uh, and then we have kids think through as opposed to just taking those thoughts as trues thinking about, well, are they accurate?

Um, are they helpful? Is there another way of thinking about the situation? Or often we'll say, well, what would you say to a friend if you had a friend who had done badly on a test and was saying, I'm a failure, I'll never be able to do this. What would you say [00:07:00] to them? And maybe you can coach yourself in that same way.

Tom Klisiewicz: was one, one thing that, uh, that you taught me that was one, one of my favorite things to teach and that really seems to link with kids is the coach a coach B coach C. explain that one?

Jeannie Stathis: okay.

Aude Henin: Yes. Um, so, uh, I have to acknowledge that I, uh, use this example, which was originally taught by my mentor, Michael Otto. , and he, uh, talks a lot about, um, or the story talks about a child who is playing in this case, little league, you can substitute another sport. Um, and Mrs, uh, a pop fly and the ball falls and the other team gets two runs and coach a comes out and coach a says, Ooh.

How could you have messed this up? That was the worst play I've ever seen. That's it. You're the worst player. Go sit down. You're done. Right? You can imagine how Ode

feel situation, where she's, you know, dropped the ball, maybe doesn't really want to play baseball

Tom Klisiewicz: Right.

Aude Henin: is very anxious, right?

Gets stomach aches maybe before playing. So that's [00:08:00] coach A. And then in the same situation, if we go back and Ode's missed the ball, and um, Two runs are scored, coach B comes out and coach B says, Oh, you know, I saw what you did. Wasn't your best move, but you know, let me give you a couple of pointers because I think there's some things that could help.

So first of all, go back more because it's easier to gauge where the ball's coming. If you're moving forward, keep your eye all the way until the ball's in your glove. So you don't close your glove too soon. You got this. Give it a try. I think you can do better. . Now, if we go back one more time and look at coach C, coach C comes out and says, ah, oh, don't worry about it.

It's all good. You're fine. If you're owed, which coach do you want?

Tom Klisiewicz: B definitely.

Yeah.

Jeannie Stathis: Yep.

Aude Henin: How come? Why not A or C?

Tom Klisiewicz: not helpful.

Jeannie Stathis: I think, you know, when you, uh, fail, quote unquote, in a way like that, you feel that already. I don't need anyone else to tell me that I didn't catch the ball. I'm the one that's most aware of it. What I want to know is how can I catch the ball next time? And when you have somebody come up and doesn't really, you know, they know that you didn't catch it.

That's what it is. Let's figure out how to not do it [00:09:00] next time. I can see that the next time that I'm out in the field, I'm going to be able to apply those things and hopefully make that catch next time.

Aude Henin: Exactly, right. So if your goal is to get better at playing, neither A or C really kind of achieve that. If your is to enjoy the game, you don't really care about your performance, again, neither A nor C are really helpful. And so here's the thing, almost nobody says A or C, but when we coach ourselves, which coach do we tend to adopt?

Jeannie Stathis: Oh, whoa. Oh my gosh, A. I literally just played softball last night and just struck out looking, so I was A. I can tell

you that.

Aude Henin: Right. Exactly. I'm so stupid. How could I have done this? I'll never be able to play. Everyone's laughing at me. Everybody thinks I'm a loser. That coach A is so powerful. And again, we talked to ourselves in a way that we would never talk to others. And so recognizing that coach A and thinking about how can I turn that into a coach B, um, is big part of what we teach.

This isn't the same thing as, you know, everybody gets a prize just for showing up, but it is. Being more [00:10:00] compassionate and more thoughtful about how we handle our imperfections or mistakes or failures.

Jeannie Stathis: I also think as, , a coach or a teacher or a parent thinking about those coaches in your own head when you are addressing, a kid, I mean, you, that really is something that works for the student, but then also for the adult in this situation of, you know, how, how, what would I be saying to myself?

What would I be feeling in this moment? And what can I say to myself? to this student or to this kid that's going to be able to uplift them and, and, and give them information to carry forward so that they can succeed next time. That is, I see why that struck you so much, Tom, that, that is very powerful.

Aude Henin: Yeah. Well, we say the parenting of today is the self talk of tomorrow. So, you know, a lot of that is learned over time. Um, and so we do want to be thoughtful about how we communicate. Again, kids, you know, need to learn their limits and we can acknowledge if they've messed up. But how we talk to them about that and how we support them in that makes a big difference moving forward.

Tom Klisiewicz: Yeah. It's such a great one. It's, you know, [00:11:00] anybody I tell that to there, the answer always is I want coach B, but I'm coach A. And you just see the light bulb go off in kids heads and it's like, okay, I want to be more a coach B. And the other one you said about, you would you say to your friend, you know, to your best friend, how would you talk to your best friend afterwards?

And that's, I think those are so key to help with those situations.

mentioned earlier sleep. You, you kind of teach some of the sleep stuff. So how does sleep have to do with, with resiliency and, and any tips you have for kids? Cause I know a lot of kids are up all night on their phones and things like that.

Aude Henin: sleep is tricky. Uh, we know that kids are, uh, significantly sleep deprived, whether it's because of work or technology or just competing demands. and we know that lack of Sleep, is incredibly impactful on attention, emotional flexibility, uh, empathy, social skills, everything. And so, we do really think about how can we foster healthy sleep habits, we try really be careful about again, [00:12:00] one size fits all. This is what you need to do, because I think that's a huge problem in the field. So it's really more about having a conversation about, uh, do they feel like they're getting enough sleep? Is there sleep quality?

Good. , and what are the things that might be interfering? So a tool that we teach throughout this program is problem solving. Identifying issues and thinking about various ways of addressing them that will work for that individual child. , that conversation, that process is so important.

Jeannie Stathis: The word that you just said there conversation. I think we, build resiliency through learning through each other and through conversations that we have and that, , each kid is unique and different. The process for them to get sleep or whatever it might be, is going to be different and talking to them about what they're going through and what we can do to be able to help them to do that better .

That conversation is, is so important.

Aude Henin: . And, and because we often offer these, um, this program in a group, they help each other and they much to offer and that building of a community where they can share ideas, uh, and suggestions [00:13:00] is also so powerful.

Jeannie Stathis: Well, I just wanted to say, you talked about relaxation response, and just from sitting here having this conversation with you, I feel more relaxed. Your voice is so relaxing. So maybe that's something that, you know, I, from somebody who's outside of program, that you might want to integrate in there.

It's just so peaceful and

calming.

Aude Henin: Oh, thank you. That's funny. I don't know that my kids would agree.

Tom Klisiewicz: Yeah. Doctor, you mentioned earlier kind of, you know, that really kids need to. Build this before that crisis hits, you most people are listening to this, are, you know, parents or teachers or coaches or things like that. there a way it's probably through the conversation we were just talking about, but how do you kind of convince kids that, Hey, you got to start this now so that when that crisis hits, you're ready to go.

, Do you have

Aude Henin: so I have a few thoughts, and, and let me start by saying that one of the reasons that I've been, uh, so privileged and so excited to do this work is that as a child psychologist who tends to see kids [00:14:00] when they're already suffering tremendously and cannot keep up with the demand, , a big part of my motivation is really to try to intervene much earlier in the process.

So we know, for example, that kids, , with anxiety and mood disorders suffer an average of. seven to 10 years between onset of the symptoms and proper diagnosis and treatment. So that is a lifetime for a child.

.

And so my hope is really to recognize and intervene long before they would land on our shores.

 I think it's essential that we, um, offer this in places where kids are. already exist. Whether it's in schools or community centers and, and offer it repetitively.

Aude Henin: So start when they're little and do it in an , developmentally appropriate way. Um, and you can do this with kindergartners and first graders, , and then revisit it throughout their development in years in an increasingly sophisticated way so that they have it. under their belt.

We're not introducing it at age 15 as a foreign

concept.

[00:15:00] And you know, that it's just integrated as part of the, it's, it's part of the, their everyday lives and world. So it doesn't, I think, have as much resistance, um, if that makes sense.

Tom Klisiewicz: it, it does completely. I think it's that, that consistent repetition. And then when, you know, I may not need it when I'm in kindergarten or first grade, but, but the consistency when I do need it, when that crisis style, Oh yeah, I remember this. I've been, I've been learning, learning this.

Aude Henin: It's like any tool. It's, you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't, um, be playing soccer and not ever go to practice and then be thrown into the big game and clue what to do. And if you were, you wouldn't want to do that again. So I think it's really working on it when things are not, um, at their peak, uh, so that those tools are available, uh, when that happens.

Tom Klisiewicz: think that's a great point because you think about, because you know, many kids play sports or they play a musical instrument or anything like that. And if you can talk to them about, Hey, how often do you practice so that you're ready for that game or that concert, whatever it is, well, every day, well, it's the same thing with this type of stuff.

You got to [00:16:00] practice it every day so that you're ready when that, that game, if you will, kind of kind of happens.

, and like any tool, you're not going to be good at it at first. So I think a lot of kids say, I tried it, I do it. Well, of course you can't, you couldn't do anything. You couldn't write your letters the first 200 times you practice, you've got to keep at it. And so I think those are all examples that kids really can relate to, uh, and I think can, can help them, um, be engaged in, in the program.

Tom Klisiewicz: That's mentioned kind of making sure that it's developmentally appropriate. you have any tips for people about, okay, what if I've got a younger kid versus, you know, an older kid, what, what I should or shouldn't do with those,

Aude Henin: So the same skills can be taught across ages. Um, with younger kids, we might make them shorter. Uh, we might them, make them more like a game. Although even with older kids, games are, are good. , we want to make it fun and engaging and not just sit down and practice your relaxation.

Um, with kids of all ages, we also try to build on what they're already doing. .

So if we think about mindfulness as being a [00:17:00] complete focus on the present, um, and focusing on repetition, and if your mind wanders, just gently bringing yourself back. Kids do a lot of things where they might be mindful. So whether that's jumping on a trampoline, playing with their dog, Doing some sort of sport, listening to music, uh, talking with a friend.

We really, instead of teaching them a rote and rigid way of doing mindfulness, we ask them what they're already doing and build on that. And that can be done, um, in a developmentally appropriate way with kids of all ages.

Tom Klisiewicz: that's great. Great idea. Thank you for that. Excellent. Excellent. Jeannie, any questions before we jump into kind of our final three? Anything else you've got you were thinking of?

Jeannie Stathis: No, what I wanted, what I wanted to throw in before we get to our final three questions is just how wonderful this conversation has been for, I think, parents that programs like this don't exist for their kids.

I think if we can get programs to kids, wow, the power that's in that. But so much of what you said here is such a reminder that we can [00:18:00] do it when we're sitting at the breakfast table in the morning. Um, so thank you very much. You've, you've given so much wisdom to myself and to our listeners.

Thank you so much, Dr.

Tom Klisiewicz: Yeah.

Aude Henin: You're welcome.

Tom Klisiewicz: Dr. Hannon has been so keen getting those programs out to people. So greatly, greatly appreciate that out to kids, you all over the country.

Aude Henin: And, and you're right. You do not need to be a psychologist to do this and teach this. And that's something we really believe. This is accessible to anyone of any age.

Tom Klisiewicz: Dr. Henry, we try to, we end the podcast with kind of three, three kind of key questions. First question is everybody deals with stress. Everybody deals with anxiety. Can you talk to us about one thing that you use to kind of calm your nervousness, calm your anxiety

. that

Aude Henin: I am someone who relaxes through activity. I not someone who sits still very often. And so, the things that I find the most relaxing are, physical activity. So whether that's running, um, I love to garden and gardening is my go to. I love the [00:19:00] smell and the texture and the visual and the beauty and the fact that it's changing every single day.

And just look at being a very mindful way how the plants are changing and growing or at this point, I'm not growing, uh, and that is just a source of incredible, uh, de stressing for me.

Tom Klisiewicz: question is, we, we, one of the other things that we try to really tell kids, you know, through this program is, or through this podcast is really just that a failure is something that everybody deals with. It's not something to be upset about and that people, even as, you know, highly credentialed experienced, like I said, Michael Jordan of child resiliency has probably, let's Gone through a failure or two to, you know, your career.

Aude Henin: I don't know you're talking about.

Tom Klisiewicz: Do you have one you could share with us that you, you kind of had to deal with? And you know, maybe what you learned from it or whatever you took away from it.

Aude Henin: Absolutely. No. And I share this often because I, I work with a lot of young, uh, with [00:20:00] students and, um, and grad students and undergrads. And, um, so I think it's intimidating when you see somebody who's been in the field for 30 years, think, Oh, how did they get there? And it looks like it was a straight line.

I didn't get into grad school the first time I applied. I got rejected every single one, um, and in hindsight probably rightfully so because I was not prepared and mature enough and it was devastating, uh, and so I had to take a year and, and figure things out and then I, I reapplied and I ended up getting in, but that was such a powerful experience because, you know, I, it would have been very different possibly had, had that not happened.

Jeannie Stathis: Dr. Hennon, you really are like Michael Jordan, because I think he didn't make his

Tom Klisiewicz: Right, exactly.

Jeannie Stathis: So a lot similarities here.

Aude Henin: That's really funny.

Jeannie Stathis: lot of them.

Aude Henin: Um, I, I, I, you don't want to see my basketball

Tom Klisiewicz: you

Aude Henin: That's,

Jeannie Stathis: Just, you know, you're going to stick to gardening,

Aude Henin: I, I'm to with

Jeannie Stathis: Yeah.

Aude Henin: psychology.

Tom Klisiewicz: Excellent. All right. And last question, you know, if, if a parent, you know, just has a [00:21:00] few minutes at the breakfast table or a coach or teacher has just a couple of minutes, you know, at the end of class or the end of practice, they want to kind of play one piece from this podcast. What's the main, it could be something we already talked about.

about it could be something we didn't get to today. What's, what's something you think you really, that could really help them to kind of play for one of their kids to kind of listen to.

Aude Henin: I think the most important thing is that stress is automatic, um, but resilience and coping are not. And it's something that kids and adults have to actively practice and actively seek out, um, to, to use.

Tom Klisiewicz: Henning, thank you so much for your time. This was wonderful.

Jeannie Stathis: Thank you.

so

Aude Henin: you. Thank you. Thank you. It's such a pleasure.

Jeannie Stathis: a pleasure. Thank you so much, Dr. Henin.